“You will own nothing and you’ll be happy”
Because fuck you, that’s why.
- Microsoft
Saved you a click.
Seriously, only go there for the facepalms.
Anyone who wants to try Linux but is scared of or reluctant about anything about the process at all: talk to me! There are multiple ways to try it with zero change to your system, like Oracle VirtualBox or a USB flash drive.
the reason is literally “because we decided not to implement it”
Saved you a click.
I’m one of the few who has had it at the top for as long as I can remember. It absolutely infuriated me to find out the feature had been removed.
Im more of a left-side guy, but i share your pain
TLDR: We rewrote the taskbar and didn’t bother implementing it.
This really stuck with me. “Rewrote” implies feature parity. What they really did was replace the taskbar.
What’s weird is that given certain odd scenarios (I can’t recall it but there was a video by Enderman about it) you’ll see the old windows 10 taskbar appear, exact styling and all. So the windows 11 taskbar is quite literally just a WebView plastered on top.
In Windows 10, you could move it to the top, left, or right of the screen.
In every version of Windows up until now which has contained a taskbar and start menu, as far back as Windows 95. Not just Windows 10. Let’s not sell short the full extent idiocy on display, here.
“Pouring its engineering resources,” my ass.
In the launch version of windows 11 and for over TWO YEARS it didn’t even support drag&drop. It was working fine even on windows me
Drag and drop worked on windows 3.1. That was like the whole thing. “LOOK WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW!”
At this point, I’m fairly sure pissing people off is the point with Windows 11. It’s full of AI no one wants, refuses to officially run on most hardware that people already have, despite running just fine on that same hardware UNofficially, dropped support for drag and drop, doesn’t let you move the taskbar.
And thats not even to mention the fact that it monitors you, and reports back to HQ with screen grabs and usage activity.
Oh look, ZorinOS, just one singular distro, had 1.6 million downloads in the past 2 months.
Wait, is there any special thing that happened 2 months ago? Oh right. Windows 10 support ended, and microsoft told its userbase “fuck you, you can’t get support for windows 10, and this computer can’t update to windows 11. This computer is now trash!”
Suddenly all these youtube videos pop up “Is your PC unable to install windows 11? Try linux!”
And these videos don’t try to sway you to one distro or another. They point out a few big hitters like mint or ubuntu. I can’t imagine them specifically naming zorin, unless it’s a zorin centric video. But I’m talking about the flood of “try linux” videos that popped up in October.
And that 1.6 million is JUST zorin. That’s the runoff. I don’t have numbers, or sources, but gut instinct tells me that if Zorin had 1.6 million downloads, Mint must have had like 5 million minimum. Every video always reccomends Mint. It’s probably overtaken Ubuntu at some point as most used distro.
And all of this, every single bit of user loss has NOTHING to do with linux. Users are angrily switching. Not happily. They feel abandoned, and forced to switch.
If Microsoft either extended Windows 10 support, or allowed Windows 11 to be installed on reasonable hardware, this linux boom DOES NOT HAPPEN. This is Microsoft saying “Yeah bitch, money is tight! Go buy another computer, loser! You’ll do what we say, and there’s nothing you can do to stop us!”
That’s when users switched to linux. This is pure hubris from Microsoft. It would be interesting if somehow we could get a combined number of EVERY distros doenload numbers.
It also has a very poorly written UI interface that’s fucking infuriating. I was reverse engineering it to figure out why it’s so damn slow on HDDs, with explorer.exe rendering like shit, the Start menu crawling, and taskbar popups that make you want to smash your screen. They wrote really really fucking bad code compared to the Win7 days—basically just took the old MFC crap and slapped a XAML wrapper on it to make it look “nice.” What a fucking disaster.
I read some article or saw some video claiming that explorer was basically a react app now, which is why unlocking the screen takes 3.5 business days when you enter the correct password.
Uh, what? Can you clarify what you mean by “drag&drop”? Because dragging and dropping files or text around within or between application windows definitely worked even when Win 11 was new, so you’re probably talking about some specific instance, I assume?
The taskbar on windows 11 for the first two years didn’t support dragging and dropping on icons or opened applications. It was completely unusable
Ah, okay, gotcha. Yeah that’s fair. Not something I’ve ever really used, so wasn’t aware of that. Your comment read to me as if Windows as a whole just didn’t support drag&drop.
Look at this video from 4 years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGHokrbjlz8
I updated even on the beta version and at the beginning I was like “well it’s a beta, surely they will fix it”… Then it launched with the broken taskbar and I thought “surely this will be patched in a week” - it took TWO YEARS
Drag and drop is the entire bases for windows. How do you release a version without it?
And it kind of makes sense to have the taskbar at the right or left on a widescreen monitor as there is so much space there
Actually my understanding is that in Japan and other cultures, right hand side start menu has been the standard preference. It’s amazing to me that that cultural preference even has been ignored.
What does making sense have to do with MS-Windows?
Windows 98 felt as if it was very sensible (when it didn’t hang). Windows 2000 Server I still remember as the best one. XP was too bright in visual design, but homely.
The only two incarnations of Windows I found to be acceptable were NT4 and W2k. Anything later was mostly a step into the wrong direction.
Using XP was almost the same as using W2K, except uglier, but more sci-fi-feeling. IIRC.
But yes, I too remember W2K as the best one.
From the PoV of a kid visiting websites, reading books on the Web, playing forum RPGs and some video games, and downloading MP3s. And talking over ICQ.
From that PoV it was fast, clean and without distractions and I liked the icons, the sounds and the wallpapers.
I was just getting seriously into CAAD, VR and visualization when I switched from NT to 2k - and to Linux on my second machine. I had Blender (still proprietary of NaN, then) importing DXF files via network share and render them in the backgroud while I was working on the next drawing on my W2k machine. Nobody understood what the heck I was doing but the visualisations (and even an animation in real 3D - gasp!) were quite a killer back then…
In every version of Windows up until now which has contained a taskbar and start menu, as far back as Windows 95. Not just Windows 10.
Sadly not true. Microsoft removed the Start button in a version of Windows before. It was in Windows 8 (and Windows Server 2012 for some godforsaken reason) with the cursed “metro” interface. MS did it for the same stupid reason they’re citing here “tablet and touchscreen users”. The uproar caused MS to release Windows 8.1 a year later where they returned the Start button.
Windows 8 and metro were not so bad compared to what’s happening now. They at least had a consistent picture in mind. I liked those things even if I wouldn’t use them (moved firmly to Linux by then).
My own humble opinion is that Windows in all its parts (perhaps except NT and basic layers) is as a project too much legacy. Simply existed too long with backwards support for various versions of involved libraries, with MS carrying the burden of maintaining old versions (while applications developers could package them similarly to how they package patched versions). Many tools to do the same thing.
They should put all that on life support, installable separately, and make a clean set of libraries and tools that forms their new normal desktop installation. Preferably tabula rasa, no compromises.
A file manager, a configuration manager, a set of desktop widgets. It’ll take them much less effort and time to just write a new set of tools.
A normal configuration manager supporting all that it should is the hardest thing. But it’ll also be the killer feature, imagine one UI to configure everything in a Windows installation, it’d be as cool as YaST2 in OpenSUSE or drakconf. IIRC, their system configuration tools for Windows 98 were a bit more user-friendly than NT-inherited for 2000 and XP, and haven’t (the old ones) improved much since then ; they can fix that.
That means dropping backwards compatibility for such a clean installation - well, who wants to run old applications, will run them in, sigh, that installable compatibility environment (might be cut down somehow).
I’m almost certain that’ll be both cheaper and more popular among users than what they are doing.
Sadly not true. Microsoft removed the Start button in a version of Windows before
They didn’t say that every version of windows since then had a start button
First of all they only talked about the start menu, which was still part of 8, even if it was annoying and full-screen. And second they only said that every Windows version that had that allowed you to move the taskbar around. Not that every Windows version so far had it.
The also killed their UI performance previously when Vista first launched. Remember Aero?
The years of engineering salaries and test versions to dock a visual element at the top, instead of the bottom…
Maybe MS couldn’t stuff enough ads into the old Start Menu requiring a re-write to allow for more ad space. /s
the code required to move the taskbar to the top or sides isn’t actually in Windows 11, because Microsoft created the new taskbar from the ground up
Funny, I run a script on my work computer that let’s me move it. I like it on the top.
It couldn’t be that hard to make new code that achieves the same thing with the new taskbar.
It’s hardly the only feature they broke. Another stupidly simple thing was On Win10 I can click on the time and pop open the calendar from any monitor. Windows 11 only the main monitor works. It’s annoying as fuck. Everyone involved with creating this half baked piece of shit and forcing it on Windows users should kill themselves.
Harsh, but I think everyone at the entire company could and we’d be better off.
That OS is not even pretending to hide how sinister it’s being.
In a non capitalist hellhole, people would’ve quit before copying with writing any of it. They would’ve quit before they put Candy Crush on the Start menu.
I could perhaps have understood this calendar mess when they rolled out windows 11, but we’re one year later, come on.
Windows 11 came out in 2021, 4 years ago.
I got my computer in 2022 and switched to Linux this year so for a 3 year period I got to experience Windows 11 get worse in real time. Co-Pilot being built in is what completely broke me I think.
Right. All the more incomprehensible.
Probably Microsoft: copilot, rewrite the taskbar
The taskbar: I’m only down here now
“When you think about having the taskbar on the right or the left, all of a sudden the reflow and the work that all of the apps have to do to be able to have a wonderful experience in those environments is just huge.”
This is such utter fucking nonsense. They already have to deal with the concept of a “client area” that encompasses variable-sized screens and (worse) the multiple-monitor situation. Movable task bar is trivial.
laughs in KDE
Plasma is everything I used to wish Windows’ desktop could be, but isn’t because of… honestly I have no idea what they’re thinking over there. I am so glad I dumped that trainwreck. Love everything KDE <3
That’s quite an article to say they forgot about it after re-writing the task bar for no reason. It’s such a basic expected feature.
Probably written by CowPilot
just MS things. changing things for no apparent reason to make it worse to use and also remove existing features that people actually liked
Microsoft is doing great when it comes to supporting the rise of linux.
I’m on linux because of Microsoft
Kubuntu, proxmox and mint checking in here fu $msft
On linux since everything M$ has done from Win 2000 onwards and their mob style practices under piece of shit Ballmer.
I can’t move the Windows 11 taskbar because I’ve been running Linux for over 20 years. Recommended fix!
Yeah, KDE ftw
Linux is missing enterprise management tools. For all its horrible flaws, nothing like SCCM, In tune, group policy, and Active Directory (in the sense of managing group policy, not so much identity) exist for Linux. Fix that, even commercially, and you might see a real change.
There’s plenty of enterprise management tools available - these tools all existed in the Linux world before their adoption to Windows.
There’s a bunch of different configuration management tools available:
Or you could go for an MDM (Mobile Device Management) solution:
These lists are not exhaustive.
The same tools that manage data centers full of servers can also be used to manage user devices.
I’m aware of these, but invariably when discussing with my intercompany peers it’s a hard no. When a company completely ditches MS it literally makes the news. The cost vs complexity formula must not make sense (also user retraining and interoperability problems are not solved here either).
I would love to break the stranglehold MS has on general corporate productivity computing but I also want to keep my job.
Sorry, it didn’t seem like you were aware of them from the post above. There are plenty of reasons to stay with Windows, Linux lacking enterprise management tools just isn’t one of them.
People don’t generally care which OS they use as long as they can get their job done. We had one sub-division entirely on an immutable Linux desktop, another media unit was all-in on Apple products. As you say though, they’re outliers - simple inertia will keep people with Windows for a long time to come, their dominant position ensures it.
The cost vs complexity argument isn’t a compelling one either - there’s a reason so little of the internet runs on Windows.
My Linux laptop at work is enrolled in Intune
Finally someone know how IT works in the corporate world
No thanks! I’m more into abolishing capitalism than facitating it further. I’m looking forward to the end of all commercial enterprises and especially management! It should be as difficult and expensive as possible to establish hierarchical systems of digitally managing large corporations.
So, to cater to the maximum number of users at once, Microsoft applied a data-driven approach to find out which features to add now, which features to add later, and which to completely avoid.
I call bullshit, because nobody uses the “modern” devices and printers interface in windows 10, because it fucking sucks. Everyone goes to the control panel instead. In windows 11, you have to use the “modern” interface, and it drives me crazy, especially because the old, fully functional, and reliable one is still in the OS, but Microsoft decided to hide it/make it a PITA to get to.
They keep re-implementing things.
Just the Start menu. You can see how 95 evolved into 98 evolved into ME, then they changed it for XP, and they never stopped making big pointless changes. In many cases, those big pointless changes have been lengthening the process of going from the bare desktop to the thing you need by adding pointless screens and dialogs. Or, like the Start menu, they just drastically redesigned it such that a user used to Win XP tries to use 7 and they just…stare at it because it’s not what they were expecting. Windows 7’s Start menu might even be objectively better, Microsoft’s software engineers could very well produce good research documentation about UI design based on observing or polling users about what features they wanted and then they made the thing people seemed to want, but to people who got used to how it already worked the new thing was bad because it’s different.
I could be convinced Windows 8.1 is a mental unwellness simulator. In Sierra’s FMV horror game Phantasmagoria 2, the player character goes insane at work, and this is simulated by the paperwork he’s working on flashing scarier words for a split second. You’re reading this document and then near the bottom of the page an ordinary word like “recommended” turns to “murdered” for a few frames. Win 8.1’s animated tiles reminded me of that. Plus the whole “The desktop and all normal Windows apps therein is itself just an app that can be run in split screen next to special phone-like single tasking apps which pretty much only we will develop for and we won’t include desktop versions of so you have to deal with this.” I hate Windows 8.1.
What’s real fun is you can tell when they abandoned work on a project by which drastically different UI it’s encrusted with. The modem dialer looks like Windows XP, the fax program looks like Vista, some things have the flat purple stank of 8, some things have the dark glass look of early 10.
For printers, go to DEVICES > let it load it all > more devices settings (towards bottom) - to open old school printer control panel. Major pain in the ass.
for power users? absolutely. but nobody who isn’t tech savvy even knows what control panel is anymore.
Over the years I came to realize that tech savvy when it came to windows doesn’t actually mean anything. It just means you are able to fight through the bullshit and get things done with what you have.
The amount of bullshit is incredible. The DE sets the windows position. The DE tells the apps what’s the “usable” desktop area. It worked for decades. And now “you can’t imagine the amount of work”
Fuck you microsoft. Not that I care anymore. Even your excuses are pathetic.
There was a while back some Windows developer externally lamenting how ass-backwards they were and as a result their NT kernel was woefully under-featured compared to other contemporary OSes…
Then I think they forced him to take it back and say ‘um actually our kernel is actually super awesome, my mistake’.
Microsoft applied a data-driven approach to find out which features to add now, which features to add later, and which to completely avoid.
WHAT DATA?!
They asked chatgpt
But, only after not getting an answer from Copilot.
Same thing.
Microsoft applied a data-driven approach to find out which features to add now, which features to add later, and which to completely avoid.
Which is why if you dig deep enough into Settings you’ll see WinXP Control Panel UI elements. You know, the elements that are actually useful for power users.
There’s a format dialog from NT still present in win 11
edit: it’s from 1994 according to the person who wrote it
The main one I use is the network adaptor settings, where you can enable/disable protocols and most importantly for me, where you can easily add multiple IP addresses on a network adaptor.
The Win 8+ network settings page is an absolute trainwreck. I particularly like how it doesn’t warn about conflicting IP addresses now and just silently accepts your given address and provides an auto-assigned 169.254 address instead if it sees even the smallest hint of another computer out there using the address you want to use.
Guaranteed fun and confusion trying to access/ping things until you finally check the status of the network adaptor and discover the auto assigned address, thanks Microsoft.
Not everyone wants to use dhcp, which is clearly their preferred direction, and there have been bugs where Cisco devices trigger that flip to auto assigned addresses even if things are fine.
Most of the old settings are at least easily reached if you can remember their names such as ncpa.cpl for the settings you mention but when you write “control printers” you get sent into the new Settings view now. Instead you gotta go to the control panel and change view from category to small or large icons to finally right click Devices and Printers and choose “open in a new window” to get there. If you left click it you get sent to the new Settings view.
It seems that every new release adds another layer of indirection (misdirection?) between you and the useful stuff you need to access. I use a third party utility to manage IP settings, and it’s one click from its menu to get to the network adapter page. It takes me about 5 minutes of angry clicking around in stock standard win11 before I get to the same place.
The data they have compiled from years of people using Win 10 and Msoft Edge.
If they were using that data, then they would have included features people actually use in 10. Or maybe they’re just doing the inverse of whatever the data suggests.
Or maybe you’re overestimating the amount of people who actually used that. Spending effort on something that less than maybe 1% of users actually use and that is not load bearing to any important workflows is hard to argue for when you’re a corp that is only concerned about its own bottom line. It’s a pretty rational business decision, even if you (and I) disagree with it.
It’s the data of what corners MS can cut to save more money than they lose when x number of users decide enough is enough.
Two data points: What their intern could do with React; what their intern couldn’t do with React.
Data can say whatever the hell you want if you lack scruples.
It’s Microsoft, they have all the data. And quite frankly it doesn’t surprise even a little bit, i doubt even 5% of people moved around the taskbar, people are just ready to hitch themselves to every bandwagon they see shitting on Microsoft.
In that case, based on the roughly 1.5 billion Windows users, that’ll only affect a mere 75 million users for a feature that’s been there since Windows 95.
The equation they are thinking of, though, is “will the cost of those who actually quit using Windows outweigh the cost of building and maintaining this feature.” Funnily enough the inability to move the taskbar is what finally pushed me to Linux full-time, but the overwhelming majority will complain and stick to Windows.
"Microsoft applied a data-driven approach to find out which features to add now, which features to add later, and which to completely avoid.
Unfortunately, for the enthusiasts who had a left-aligned or vertical taskbar in Windows 10, you would have to settle for the fact that Microsoft’s data shows such users are really small when compared to the number of users who are asking for other newer features in the taskbar."
100% of the users that are smart enough to care about moving the task bar are also smart enough to turn off all optional telemetry. This sadly a part of why tech companies are making products for the dumbest people and pushing away power users.
I just find it hilarious that the top/right/left toolbar was possible in windows 95/98/ME
but its to much of a technical problem to do today.
I guess thats what you get with AI doing all your coding…
If your thinking way is true, I am trully afraid of how many people used ai in win10…
How tf do they get telemetry for features that haven’t been added yet.
Microsoft Recall
