I ask this question because of this comment chain (and totally not because I got down voted and my ego is too fragile, it is most definitvely absolutely positevly me asking for the science. I swear)
https://lemmings.world/post/23635250/14708515
If you can go through it, please do, there are some references for some claims, if not you can go through the following ai generated summary (if it helps, it is a local llama)
The original poster (sga) expressed concerns about the practice of trimming cat nails, comparing it to declawing and suggesting that it may cause trauma for the cat. Other users (Bamboodpanda and Chairman Meow) responded that trimming cat nails is a normal and necessary practice, especially for indoor cats, to prevent overgrown nails and damage to furniture. sga argued that cat claws are an essential part of a cat’s predatory nature and that trimming them may impair their ability to hunt and defend themselves. Chairman Meow countered that cat nails are not as robust as sga suggested and that trimming them does not impair their usability. sga provided several sources suggesting that indoor cats often engage in predatory behavior outdoors, despite being fed at home. SupremeDonut responded that the sources sga provided referred to free-range and feral cats, rather than indoor house cats. sga provided additional sources to support the claim that indoor cats also engage in predatory behavior outdoors. sga also mentioned the hypothesis that some amount of injuries or exposure to allergens can be beneficial for children’s immune systems, and provided a source to support this claim.
Declawing and trimming are not the same. Trimming is fine. Declawing is not.
Most people don’t want holes in their skin, clothes, furniture, etc.
well if you do not want holes in your skin/clothes/furniture, you should not have them (as in the said things) /s
i know they are not same, my question is why is/is not trimming fine
Why is cutting your nails ok? Why is cutting the tips of your fingers off to remove the nails, not ok?
Trimming doesn’t cause any harm or pain.
Unless done improperly so that you hit the quick, but that’s not different from trimming your own nails.
We get our cat groomed a couple times a year and part of it is nail trimming. By the time we get it done sometimes (when we’ve waited too long), she’s getting her nails caught on things and it freaks her out. She has a cardboard scratcher and she continues to claw the couch even when we tell her not to so it’s not like she doesn’t have opportunities to wear them down.
Overly long nails are a health hazard, not trimming a cats nails when appropriate is neglect. An overgrown nail can get stuck and cause them to break a digit, it can make it difficult and painful to walk, it can also make the nail break off, which is painful and can become infected.
Most cats will grind their nails down themselves to some degree, not by simply walking but by scratching against something (e.g a tree, your couch), which serves the additional purpose of marking territory. A misconception you seem to have is that a trimmed cat’s claws can’t scratch, this is not the case, a cat is still able to hunt* or defend itself with trimmed nails. It will simply be less likely to accidentally hurt you (overgrown claws can still poke through while the claws are retracted for instance) and will have less desire to scratch at furniture.
Here is the humane societies take on it (my local and national versions of the society all have similar stuff, and my local chapter even provides free/subsidized nail trimmings).
Trimming a cat’s claws every two to three weeks is an important part of maintaining your pet’s health. Not only does a quick trim protect you, your pet and your family, it can also save your sofa, curtains and other furniture.
* outdoor cats hunting is a serious environmental concern and you shoudl take steps to make sure they don’t catch anything, but that’s a separate conversation.
P.S it is kinda a weird move to write as if SGA is not you.
P.S it is kinda a weird move to write as if SGA is not you.
the wierdities is possibly because of ai
Most cats will grind their nails down themselves to some degree, not by simply walking but by scratching against something
i know this, and that is one of my points, cats should be allowed to to gradually wear them down. Clipping is instantaneous and discrete. I knida also get to why is gradual probably better than discreet (better for hunting, and hence the pshycological benefits)
A misconception you seem to have is that a trimmed cat’s claws can’t scratch, this is not the case, a cat is still able to hunt* or defend itself with trimmed nails
I do know this, but i think we can agree, trimmed cat will have less sharp claws, and less effective in said things, they would be trying to chop a tree with a bluntter axe
An overgrown nail can get stuck and cause them to break a digit, it can make it difficult and painful to walk, it can also make the nail break off, which is painful and can become infected.
these are real things i can agree to, but my hypothesis is that these are relevant for young and old cats ( i did go about this also in the other chain).
the wierdities is possibly because of ai
That’s my bad, I somehow missed the sentence where you said you were summarizing with AI, probably because I stopped to look at the OG thread right before that sentence.
cats should be allowed to to gradually wear them down
They are, that’s what scratching posts are for, you usually need both. when it’s not enough you trim them. Like you say it’s a continuous wear down, so they would never grow to a threshold where they need trimming if normal cat activities is enough to keep them short.
i think we can agree, trimmed cat will have less sharp claws, and less effective [at hunting]
No, to use your analogy the axe is shorter, and might need resharpening (something a cat will do by themselves after if they so wish) but it’s not really less effective. Not being able to stalk because the nails are overly long is a much bigger hindrance to hunting than blunt nails. Cats don’t use their claws for the death blow, they use the claws for climbing and for holding onto their prey. They use their teeth to kill their prey. So long as the claws are sharp enough to pierce skin and maybe tree bark (which after trimming they typically are) then they are good enough to hunt. You actually don’t want something that digs in too well, a cat would want to be able to let go of things by retracting their claws, something they can’t do with overgrown nails. I have personally watched cats kill birds within an hour of getting a nail trim.
my hypothesis is that these are relevant for young and old cats
My hypothesis is that gyms are bad. Only young and old people need to go to the gym, other people should be getting that exercise by hunting antelopes like they did 12k years ago. the only thing stopping people from chasing after antelopes all day is that they are too tired from visiting the gym.
gyms are still training, you are still using muscles.
We both are basically talking about same things, the only difeerence is the method of wearing of the claws - done by cat themselves (by daily using them or using scratch posts, etc) or by stimulating or accelerating the wear, by doing it by ourseleves. Maybe I am an old school guy, but to me the former seems better (animals are left better on doing things on their own). This when extrapolated to humans is a bit wierd, because we do not necessarily bound humans these days, and my point is mostly falling back to, if you raise cats, they should be allowed to be free (cared for when they are weak) but not when they are capable. This when extrapolated to humans would be equivalent of saying we should not take care of healthy middle aged people, which i do not agree with at all. I know my views are now clashing, but maybe this is because it is not easy to comment on this. There was a comment going ver domestication - it mostly went like - “we domesticated them” so now they are dependent on us.
In fact I am even more conflicted on this one - cats (indoor or outdoor) wreck havoc on wildlife around, especially near/within cities (they are basically the best predators here - small, agile and smart. In jungle there are bigger cats competing, but here they are top “cats”. And from a wild life conservationist persepective, I would never even want a cat to have sharp claws. But when I would be asked for any individual cat, I can’t resist but allow them to exist as is. Maybe this is because us humans consider ourselves indepndent of the food web, and now want to act “god” here to affect this. Maybe we are the ones to be blamed for bringing cats with us. (which we are responsible for, but I don’t know how to react to that)
The original poster (sga) expressed concerns about the practice of trimming cat nails, comparing it to declawing
That should be your clue, on top of people directly telling you in that thread, that these are two entirely different things.
i know, and i had given reasonings for my comparisons, it is kinda like saying getting kicked in balls vs period cramps - i know they are not same
I have an indoor only cat. I trim his front nails and have trimmed them his whole life. He sits completely passively and doesn’t complain when I clip them. I trim them well away from the quick and only do so when they’ve gotten long enough that he gets caught on things or that I feel them or get scratched when he jumps in or out of my lap. He has no problems with me touching his paws and is very chill.
I had an indoor only cat who had been declawed by his previous owner. He was extremely on edge about his paws being touched, and growled, hissed and even bit if he thought you were going to try. He went straight to attempting to bite if you tried to touch him in a way he didn’t want to be touched. He was extremely distrustful of all humans and it took me a long time to win him over.
IMO the difference is obvious and there’s no comparison. Trimming a cat’s nails, if done correctly, causes a cat no real discomfort or lasting trauma. Declawing a cat violates a cat’s trust and causes lifetime behavioral issues and real harm. They are nothing alike.
Clip them with special clippers. My cats get excited when I take the clippers cause they know it means treats. It doesn’t hurt them, but they get stressed if they feel forced.
Don’t let your cats hunt, it devastates wildlife. They will absolutely just hunt for fun, with more energy even if they’re well fed inside. Don’t get a cat if you can’t keep it entertained. Get a bunny.
well your cats are excited to get treats and probably clippers to them is just a indicator
i know cat hunting is dangerous for wild life, i added many links related to this in the original post.
It wouldn’t work as an indicator if it actually hurt them, is what I’m saying. Clipping and medication etc is only a problem because it can be stressful, and you can take all that stress away with a little conditioning.
My cat is older and doesn’t work his claws out so much these days. A little trimming goes a long way and it certainly falls short of trauma in my opinion! Definitely not the same thing as declawing
I had added in replies that i get why young and old cats may require it, and for them it is like required pain
It’s fine, but not all cat’s like it (cough) and most owners resort to force, so for many cats/owners it can be a regular traumatic experience anyway. Cats can be trained to deal with it nicely (small calm steps + treats afterwards), but one of my cats still covers her head in my arm pit while I trim her nails. She’s scared shitless of the ‘crunch’…
